U.S. officials and those in their orbit are now using the words “Vietnam” and “Afghanistan” in the same sentence.
Top U.S. officials have reached out to a leading Vietnam war scholar to discuss the similarities of that conflict 40 years ago with American involvement in Afghanistan, where the U.S. is seeking ways to isolate an elusive guerrilla force and win over a skeptical local population.
The overture to Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Stanley Karnow, who opposes the Afghan war, comes as the U.S. is evaluating its strategy there.
…
When asked what could be drawn from the Vietnam experience, Karnow replied: “What did we learn from Vietnam? We learned that we shouldn’t have been there in the first place. Obama and everybody else seem to want to be in Afghanistan, but not I.”
Karnow’s quote reminds me of a recent quote from regional expert Rory Stewart in the Financial Times:
“It’s like they’re coming in and saying to you, ‘I’m going to drive my car off a cliff. Should I or should I not wear a seatbelt?’ And you say, ‘I don’t think you should drive your car off the cliff.’ And they say, ‘No, no, that bit’s already been decided – the question is whether to wear a seatbelt.’ And you say, ‘Well, you might as well wear a seatbelt.’ And then they say, ‘We’ve consulted with policy expert Rory Stewart and he says …’”
For the record, here’s some of Rory’s actual thoughts on Afghanistan and Pakistan:
Rory’s analogy in turn reminds me of a comment I made in an exchange with one of my frequent debate partners:
There’s not a magic wand nonviolent answer to this that has the result of some people not getting hurt, but that’s in large part because we’ve been put in this situation by people who refused to listen to the nonviolent in the first place. It’s kind of like asking people who tell you not to drink and drive what they’re solution is now that you’ve killed someone while driving drunk.
Speaking to the AP reporter, Richard Holbrooke displayed a talent for unintentional irony:
Holbrooke briefly commented on contrasts between the two conflicts, noting that the military regime in Saigon was corrupt and unpopular, while the international community seeks to build a democracy in Afghanistan.
Kept afloat by billions of dollars in American and other foreign aid, the government of Afghanistan is shot through with corruption and graft. From the lowliest traffic policeman to the family of President Hamid Karzai himself, the state built on the ruins of the Taliban government seven years ago now often seems to exist for little more than the enrichment of those who run it.
From Rethink Afghanistan:
This is no small point. The counterinsurgency manual refers to a legitimate host nation government as the counterinsurgent’s “north star,” meaning it’s essential for victory. “Legitimate host government” joins “a 20-civilian : 1-troop ratio” among several non-existent, basic building blocks of a counterinsurgency strategy. Here’s Bernard Finel [h/t Steve Hynd]:
The COIN theorists would like the Afghan government to field a force of somewhere in the neighborhood of 400,000-600,000 disciplined troops, capable of using discriminant force and avoiding civilian casualties. They’d like the Aghan government to eliminate corruption. They’d like the central government to find a way to build loyalty from provincial governors and other local elites, to ensure an Afghan “whole of government” response.
Actually, it isn’t that the COIN theorists would “like” this. They require it as a precondition for the viability of their strategy.
In other words, the Very Serious Consensus that counterinsurgency will save the day in Afghanistan is built on fairies, leprechauns and unicorns.
Elections are coming up. The political outcomes could be dire. For example, if Karzai wins, his main rival is a Tajik named Abdullah Abdullah whose supporters already promised “Iranian-style protests, but ‘with Kalashnikovs’, should the President win a second term.” And, not insignificantly, the U.S. will still be saddled with a weak leader of a corrupt government that Obama advisors have started comparing to South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem.
Here’s a tip for policymakers: if you’re in a situation that’s requiring you to look to the American experience in VIetnam for guidance, you should start looking for the door.
Drugs, napalm, corrupt governments, CIA black-ops, killed civilians…
You guys never learn …
Dont knock todays music Willie, its never been better. As for the rest, well, who can argue with that…. pointless adventures with nothing to win except ever increasing profits for the war machine (at the expense of the ever sleepwalking US public).
Robert, speaking of Vietnam, here's a question I sent to Bernie Sanders. Could you consider using it in Sanders Unfiltered?
First, thank you for your weekly appearances with Thom Hartmann and now with Robert Greenwald.
I am concerned that the the State Department's tepid response to the coup in Honduras will lead to widespread, lasting damage to American interests in Latin America. US law and our historical commitments through OAS obligate the State Department to freeze the bank accounts and lift all passports (not just the diplomatic passports) of the people who conducted the coup, as well as to end military aid. The response so far by State has instead emboldened the coup makers, leading to a reported dozen deaths, hundreds wounded, and thousands imprisoned. The State Department continues to imply that controversial actions by President Zelaya in some way justified massive violations of law by those who committed the coup.
My own research convinces me that Zelaya acted lawfully under Honduran law and that the Supreme Court and Legislature did not. But even if one were to concede everything alleged by those who deposed him, they would still have committed actions that obligate our State Department to withdraw military assistance and act against the individuals involved. In a misguided attempt to negotiate through the crisis, Hillary Clinton is breaking the law and making herself and our nation culpable for massive human rights violations.
Please tell us what you will do to stand up for the rule of law.
Joel, it is similar to Chile during the 60's when US/CIA organized coup brought fascist general Pinoche in power, which resulted in thousands of killed and imprisoned people which did not aprove totalitarian regime.
I think there is something strange in US support of fascist regimes.
Maybe, existance of fascist properties of US government is causing such behaviour?
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Hey, Kristinej9, are you related to KeltCindy? You make about as much sense as she does. Could you let us know if tiny-willie, and sister-Simple are your brothers? Or sisters?
I almost doubt it because, you are far more coherent than they are! Here's a thought, maybe you could fly on over to the UK and get in on some of that great socialized health care, or not.
jeezus TC, I never took you for one of those guys who cant take a tellin off from a woman… get over it dude.
Honestly, I always thought people from Texas are a bit more independent. TC, you don't sound like a real man from TX…
When did you move to TX? And, from where? :))
Tiny-willie: Are you asking me for a date? Are you really a women or just gay? It's more that apparent that your foreign partner, sister-simple, have run out of arguments and are now resorting to defamation of character. As you can plainly see, I can wallow in the same trash you and your sister do. Bring it on….BITCHES!!!
TC, you are loosing it. You are becoming delusional by the very definition. Personal insults will not do you any good.
You do not have arguments to participate in debate. That is obvious.
I am noticing you are getting frustrated, and cause of thet frustration is some “socialist” threat to you.
TC, you are in USA, it is a fascist state and be sure no socialisam or comunisam will come to you because totalitarian regimes do not go well together.
Now, you can calm down. OK?
LOL :))
Calm down Mr Texan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIg2zixqhD0&feat…
Now that it's becoming clear that Obimbos health care debacle is probably not going to happen, I'm becoming very calm and more than ready to do battle with the brain-dead Liberals on this blog.
By the way Sister-Simple, and tiny-willie, when are you two going to apologize to the men and women of our military? Your demeaning, unfounded attacks on the overall quality of our military is really repugnant and deserves an immediate apology from you two whinny-coward socialists.
What was it I said again?… “there is no honour in fighting in todays U.S wars of agression”?… I dont apologise for making obvious statements.
You me America and Britain are terrorist states, I am sorry it is true, but I am not sorry for regognising the fact or saying it aloud.
The U.K and the U.S constitute only 7% of the world populace, what arrogance that we decide what is best for everyone else at the point of a gun or by daisy cutter.
We do agree on one thing, Iraq was a war that should have never happened. That's a given but, your personal attack on the men and women of our military who put their lives on the line every day, by order of this corrupt government and previous governments, is beyond the pale. If you want to attack something, attack the scrounges in this, and previous administrations. The U.S. has been plagued by at least 3 consecutive administrations full of corruption, including the present administration.
We agree on a good many things TC, when I see something writen by you that I agree with I will give a little nod to myself. More often than you would think.
Its not me that is denegrading the troops, I want them home and safe in their beds. You want to pay more attention to the people turning phrases like “our brave men and women in uniform” while shoving them off a cliff.
I know you think I hate America TC, but you are wrong. My dad told me of a world he grew up in in the 50's and 60's were America was no.1 – at just about everything. A country with free people, a land of milk and honey… a shining beakon on a hill that the world could walk towards and aspire to. I love America TC and it breaks my heart to see what is happening to it – $750,000,000,000 robbed in just one day and in front of everyone and you guys are more interested in denying basic healthcare to your own contrymen who have fallen on hard times!?…. this isn't recession or depression…. its mass suicide!
Let me correct your mistaken belief that Americans are not well aware of how badly we are being shafted on a daily basis. The anger your witnessing in town-hall meetings is not just about, “public option”, health care. It's an accumulation of many wrongs the corrupt and inept government has been doing to us for generations. The reason the health care issue has brought this to a head is because this government wants to meddle in, and to some degree, take over a the most private matter affecting U.S. citizens. Americans feel this is a completely improper intrusion into their private lives.
This government wants to take over health care using a number, 45.7 million Americans uninsured, that may be technically correct but, is misleading. And we know it! Take away those that make enough to pay for their own insurance but don't, illegal aliens that shouldn't be taxpayer insured under any circumstance, and those eligible, but have not signed up, and you are left with a number around 15 million, and of that number 5 million are childless adults between the ages of 18 and 34.
As you can plainly see, this government is using bogus numbers (technically correct) to force a government (public option) on us that may or may not be the best thing for U.S. citizens. And they tried to get it passed without discussion!
The real question here is not about the total number uninsured, it's about the number of uninsured that should subsidized by American tax-dollars. The altruistic answer is, “insure everyone on the backs of taxpayers”, and let Uncle-government take care of us from sperm to worm. That is not the ideology that built this country but, it sure is the ideology that will take us down. Common sense should tell you it's economically infeasible.
The original question here is about the similarities between Vietnam, and the middle east. They are almost identical in the fact that, we were lied to by the government to get us involved, and that involvement included almost every member of Congress then, and now! That pretty much sums up the feelings of anger your now witnessing concerning health care because, it's just one more huge lie being told to us to gain authority over our private lives. We will not let that happen!!
nonsense TC… your lives are already controlled by money for without it you have no shelter, no food, no higher education and no healthcare. This programme will liberate you just a little.
Indebted serbitude is not freedom TC. Quit your job if you think you are free and then we will see how long you last. You and me, both of us are slaves to a system that niether of us have chosen, except you have been convinced by the council for public relations that you are free.
If you have a couple of minuites you should google Edward Bernaise.
Your lives are already controlled by money for without it you have no shelter, no food, no higher education and no healthcare. This healthcare proposal wont restrict you, it will liberate you, that is why Wall Street is fighting it. Wall Street is destroying you, enslaving you but these “tea baggers” have nothing to say preocupied as they are by irrational fear of what they dont understand.
Indebted serbitude is not freedom TC. Quit your job if you think you are free and then we will see how long you last. You and me, both of us are slaves to a system that niether of us have chosen, except you have been convinced by the council for public relations that you are free.
If you have a couple of minuites you should google Edward Bernaise. It is completely relevent to the crowd mentality that is on display today on both the left with their herd adolation for the manufactured market icon Obama and the right with their irrational fear of change.
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